Nurse Anesthetists Still Earn More than Primary Care Physicians in US
Why I am talking about Nursing Salaries in a Physician Salaries Blog - purely because this group of nurses - I mean the Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) earn as much as the primary care physicians in America, and sometimes more!A recent 2007 CRNA salary survey by Locum Tenens revealed an average annual income of "$178,084.70 among 417 respondents to this year's salary survey, compared to $196,194.60 for the 28% of respondents who said they currently practice in rural areas"
And what were the highest earning CRNA salaries on the survey ? About $205,538.50 annually ! And what was amusing was that these high earners worked for an average of 10.3 months a year ! Whoa !!
Download the 2007 CRNA Salary Report here
Hmmm..even the national average is comparable (and also higher maybe) than that of Family docs, the Internists, pediatricians and the hospitalists.
A higher income in the rural areas is not a paradox - rather merely a result of lack of specialist MD anesthetists in the rural areas and a comparatively higher need of the greater percentage of geriatric population in those areas.
How long does it take to become a CNRA in USA? About 7 Years
How long does it take to become a primary care physician in USA ? 4 years Pre-med + 4 years Med school + 3 years Residency = 11 years and about 120,000$ in medical school debt !
Also Read:
- CRNA Salaries in USA
- A step by step guide to becoming a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA)
Search keywords to this blog article:
- "Rural versus city CRNA income"
- "How much are nurses anesthesia specialists paid"
Labels: CRNA, Nurse Anesthetist
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posted by Digitaldoc, MD at 10:55 PM
Comments on "Nurse Anesthetists Still Earn More than Primary Care Physicians in US"
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Post Your Comment !You have to work in an ICU _between_ the bachelors degree and entering the CRNA program. It takes more than 7 years to become a CRNA.
Aside from keeping you asleep and pain free, your Anesthesiologist is responsible for keeping you alive!
When you are going "under the knife," who do you want watching over you or your family?
I guess the real question is, is your life worth paying an M.D. who has gone through an extremely rigorous selection and training process? Or is saving money by using a nurse anesthetis more important??
process? Or is saving money by using a nurse anesthesis more important??
You are an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about! MDA's dont practice in rural america because it is an inconvience to them and their wives. They couldnt care less about you. MDA's for the most part dont GIVE anesthesia. They just bill you for it as the CRNA takes care of you. Dont be fooled.
An anesthesiologist makes an average of $308,238. So why are you comparing a CRNA to a Primary care physician?????????
CRNAs far more frequently are RNs who have worked in the critical care field for a decent period of time before moving on to specialize.
As a nurse practitioner myself I can attest to their dedication and professionalism. One of the previous posts eludes to CRNA being easy to attain and with no discrimination of the candidates.
I can say with certainty I have met far more MDs than CRNAs that perhaps may have better served humanity by choosing another career.
I have to agree that the road to becoming a CRNA is usually longer than the "calculated" 7 years. But, if you still want to take issue with that point you should take a look at Anesthesiologist Assistants. They too provide anesthesia. Their undergraduate education is basically any 4 year degree, followed by a 2 year graduate program in anesthesia. They have no requirement for ANY previous medical or nursing experience or education. So a teacher, landscaper or pilot can go to school for 2 years and then be out there putting you to sleep. And guess who started all of that and thinks it is a good idea?? Yes, the anesthesiologist of this country. So they can get their $300,000+ and not sit on the stool and do the cases. And yes, AA's earn the same as CRNA's.
yes, quite your whining. CRNA's typically work at least 2-3 years as critical care RNs before applying to CRNA school. And CRNA school is no joke. Also, CRNAs have a lot more responsibility than primary care physicians. Lose the attitude.
CRNA's have a lot more responsibility than primary care physicians? You must have fallen off your stool or are currently using some of the medications intended for your patients. As a primary care MD (dual EM/FP) I can tell you that my training was more labor intensive than yours and the complexity of the medical problems I deal with far outshadows anything you do. The benefit you have is that when the shit hits the fan you take a back seat to the MDA. I almost did a residency in Anesthesiology and my wife is an Anesthesiologist. She agrees that CRNA's do an excellent job and they do administer a large proportion of the anesthetics in the OR but the fact of the matter is that you are not a physician. During medical school i performed a subinternship and was able to do just about everything the CRNA was able to do. To say you have more responsibility than me is a slap in the face! Turn off the Isoflurane and get some fresh air.
RAM MD
I would have to disagree completely with the above post. CRNA's have a lot more responsibility than a primary care physician? I think you may want to cut down on sniffing the Isoflurane and using the left over Diprivan and Dilaudid and save some for your patients. My wife is an Anesthesiologist and I'm one of those primary care physicians (double residency trained in FP and EM) that apparently has less responsibility than the CRNA's. Not only is that a slap in the face but it is so far from the truth that I doubt you practice either medicine or anesthesia. I take care of critically ill patients, I take care of trauma patients, I can manage a ventilator, I can operate, I can prescribe medications outside the ER...All you can do is intubate and push some medications. When the shit hits the fan I doubt that you are the one running the show, I'll be willing to bet it is the Anesthesiologist that takes control of the situation. Please don't embarass yourself with such statements! PS Even though I'm a primary care physician, I still make double what you do, but I guess that is because I have less responsibility than you! I think you need to take a step down off your soap box and return to reality with the rest of us!
This is not a rip on CRNA's because I'm fully aware that they do the vast majority of the surgical cases that hit the OR and that you are all well trained to do this. I know alot of very competent CRNA's that are better than some of the anesthesiologists as a whole, but statements such as the one above do nothing to bolster the reputation of a CRNA above that of a primary care MD.
I must say that I am a CRNA and my29 month program cost 60,000 just for tuition. I have a great deal of respect for MDAs and primary care physicians. I work with a great anesthesiologist that respects me and my decisions in the OR but also I was so happy to see him when my patient had a placental abruption yesterday and lost 1000 ml of blood in less than 2 minutes. I had to make several life and death decisions for my patient in those 2 minutes and didn't have time to consult anyone or go look any info up in a PDR. Without good diagnostic skills by primary care physicians then patients are never sent to the right specialist or surgeon. We all should stop trying to create a hierarchy in the medical profession and try to do what is best for our patients. It would be best if we stopped fighting each other and fight the bureacracy that is changing our practice and reimbursement for healthcare, I am referring to Wachington D.C. (politicians) not anesthesiologists. I know I would not want the job of primary care physician that is why I am a CRNA.
Well, could this site be more sexist (It's always got to be some dump blonde, slut nurse picture doesn't it)?...Yes, as always another bitter physician must complain about a CRNA doing better than they are. Get over it! If you want to be a nurse feel free to go to school to become one. I'm really getting sick of hearing Primary Care Physicians complain about their salaries. Stop comparing yourself to us (CRNAs). My skills are vastly different than yours. If you want to work in anesthesia, choose that as your specialty and then you can be an Anesthesiologist and make a lot more money than I do. If the only reason you went into healthcare is for the money, may be you should have picked a different career. I do it because I love it and I love helping my patients. I started out as a nursing assistant at 16, then when to college and got my BSN. Later I became a CRNA with a Master's and now I have my DNP. Sorry, if you have no respect for that, but I worked very hard for it. But I have no respect for you, for only choosing healthcare for the money.
To the DNP that posted on 12/30/08. I never claimed that CRNA's are doing better than me. I had a problem with the supposed CRNA stating that they have more responsibility. I'm not complaining about my income! I probably make more than the Anesthesiologists you work with and definitely more than you. Never compared my skills to yours because I can do what you do as well. I chose Anesthesia before switching programs. Didn't choose medicine for the money, but it is very improtant to both me and my family. Why else would someone accumulate the debt load and risk of starting their own business if there was no reward at the end. As for you, why did you choose Anesthesia? I bet it was for the money! Otherwise you would have stayed an RN on the floor taking care of sick patients instead of in the OR. I do have respect for CRNA's but I have none for you who has no respect for others. Bitter? No! What do I have to be bitter about. I make a good living and I have a successful practice. There are a lot of reasons why I chose medicine as a career and yes money is one of them. Ask any physician if that was a major decision in choosing medicine and their specialties and the only ones that tell you any different are probably lying. It is the same reason you probably chose to do anesthesia. I started out as a CNA as well but who cares! Vastly different skills? No! I can do everything you can do and then some, but that is what makes my career path different than yours! Why did you choose to get a DNP, probably so you can tell your patients your a doctor and push yourself off as a physician to patient's in the OR. You sound like you are all about the money and title...DOCTOR. Go back to helping people if that is truly your calling in life! As for you having no resprect for me, who cares! I'm not losing any sleep over it and if you went back and read my post you wouldn't be taking such offense to it because it was directed toward one individual and not CRNA's as a whole. I do have a problem with individuals such as yourself who feel the need to justify themselves with all their qualifications and title. What do I care if you are a CRNA or a DNP that does anesthesia. Enjoy pretending to be an anesthesiologist to your patients!
RAM, CNA, PCT, RT, BS*2, MD, ABFP, ABEP............
What is this person talking about. Did you even read through the entire post! RAM never made any references to CRNA's making more money and he wasn't complaining about his salary. He posted on a different blog and he makes over triple what you make so that wasn't it. He posted regarding the CRNA that attacked primary care physicians and stated that you have more responsibility. Both you and I know that that isn't true. I'm an OR RN and my husband is an Anesthesiologist so I see what CRNA's do on a daily basis. Yes most are very good but don't compare yourself to the primary care MD. You also have to be missing a few screws to think people don't choose medicine for the money. Medicine is a business for these individuals and they expect to be compensated for their efforts. You probably chose anesthesia for the money, why else would you choose to be berrated by the surgeons and work in such a boring field! You don't get to do all the procedures as the anesthesiologist, you intubate under supervision and provide anesthetics and that is all. He is right, when things go wrong you take a back seat. Not sure as to what you were intending to get started but you apparently can't comprehend what was written.
If the only reason you went into healthcare is for the money, you should have chosen a different career? Primary care physicians chose primary care because most enjoy helping people and aren't necessarily in it for the $$$$$ Otherwise they would have chosen interventional cardiology, radiology or orthopaedics! I bet you don't hear many primary care physicians complaining about their salaries either, if you did they probably have good reason given how hard they work and still see their compensation fall. Just by the way, despite what you hear on this site, you still don't make nearly the incomes of what most primary care docs make in the private sector. You may be close to salaried primary care docs but not to the rest. I seriously doubt you are doing better than the average family doc and I doubt they are jealous of you as a CRNA. I also doubt they compare themselves to you either. Why would a physician compare their skills to that of a nurse? Regardless of what you do in the operating room, their skill set far outshadows yours. Most primary care physicians can intubate, and push paralytics through an IV, or place a mask on someone and turn on the inhaled anesthetic. It doesn't take much to do what you do, otherwise anesthesiologists wouldn't have turned the majority of anesthetic administration over to nurses in the first place. Get a life CRNA with the DNP!!!!! I do respect CRNA's because i'm an anesthesiologist and I depend on them a great deal but you shouldn't assume family docs wish they were you!
I am a CRNA and FNP. I am working on my DNP. I worked for 10 years in the ER, 2 years in ICU and 5 years in Air Medical Transport. I chose to be a CRNA because it was the closest advanced practice specialty that fit my critical care experience. The money is nice but that is not why I chose this profession. Some of the comments on this blog are frankly embarrassing for both MD’s and CRNA’s. Here’s my take. We all want to be successful in our occupation. We choose medicine because it allows us to do something we find very interesting and as we gain experience we usually find some passion for what we do. We all find satisfaction in helping people at least to some degree.
In CRNA school I enjoyed working with most MD anesthesiologists better than most CRNA’s and I think it was because there are so many CRNA’s who have to prove something to themselves, their patients, or the medical community in general. They definitely have something to prove to the CRNA student. When it all boils down this is what I perceive about the MD/CRNA issue. Both believe they are adequately educated and trained. There is no way that I know of to adequately compare the MD anesthesiologist against the CRNA in terms of ability to practice given the education and experience of both entities. I can, however, say this. The practitioner who believes he or she has reached a point because of status, education, qualification or experience that they cannot learn from another practitioner is foolish. We are individually what we make ourselves and I have seen the best on both sides.
I could have been an MD anesthesiologist. I think that there are a lot of MD’s that believe that other medical professionals are not MD’s because they lack the mental capacity to become such. There may be some truth to that, but the assumption can’t be made. I would never discredit the advice an anesthesiologist gave me. If I were an MD anesthesiologist I hope I would have an open mind to the ability and knowledge the CRNA had to offer and benefit from it. I have often discussed a case with an anesthesiologist. Most that I have worked with have provided sound advice that has proven true. I deal with difficult and complex cases the same as the anesthesiologist and I’d like to think that our treatment of the patient is equal in standard and execution.
I’m always amazed when a patient makes a request for an anesthesiologist just because they want an anesthesiologist. If they were really concerned about the care they were about ready to receive they would have found out who would give them the best care regardless of credential and not leave it up to chance. If you just ask for an anesthesiologist you limit yourself to the possibility of getting one of just half the crappy practitioners out there. The truth is that by and large there are very few really poor practitioners out there and luck has it that you will have a great experience with your anesthesia provider reinforcing the belief that one is better than the other.
In conclusion to my ranting here, in most situations I don’t believe the MD is better than the CRNA. We all have the responsibility to make ourselves the best provider that we can be and the tools to get there are basically the same. The majority of both CRNA’s and MD’s provide excellent care. Very few of us choose our profession for the money but we all like to be paid. None of us should make assumptions about knowledge and ability of the other based solely on credential and we should all be willing and eager to absorb what each individual practitioner has to offer. As for comparing primary care to anesthesia I really don’t think we should compare pot roast to potatoes. You should have them both for a good Sunday dinner but the price is very different. Really, it’s a stupid comparison to make.
As a 35 yr old ivy league educated CRNA with a DNP, I am extremely insulted by the rhetoric some of you have posted. I am the wife, daughter and sister of a physician and have high regard and respect for the hard work and dedication required, but I too have worked extremely hard and should also be acknowledged for my talents, skills and training. I completely agree with the CRNA that posted on 12/30.
My husband and I own and operate our own spine and pain management center and I work just as hard as he and am as equally qualified as he or any other anesthesiologist. I am aware of my limits and I honor my training and never cross my limits and area of expertise and qualifications.
I became a CRNA because that's what I wanted to be; if I would have wanted to be a physician than I most certainly would have gone to medical school right along with my husband and became one. Remember, nurses were the first profession to administer anesthesia in the U.S., not physicians. Have a great night! Be blessed!
The original comparison was regarding salary when one of the CRNA's stated they have more responsibility than that of a primary care physician. CRNA's have salaries similar to that of FP's usually at the beginning and end of their careers. Just as in most other specialties, you will find some at the bottom and some at the top of the pay scale. I make triple what the quoted salary for a FP does on this site and I know some that make double to triple what I make. I make an excellent living doing primary care and I net almost 500K yearly. Is this the norm? Probably not! Is it abnormal? Probably not. I also know docs making under 130-175. When I originally posted I thought the clown from 11/04 was wrong, said it and then got jumped on by the other CRNA's. Granted my other comments were probably not the most graceful but I don't think CRNA's have more responsibility. My experiences come from experience within the field and I'm not some dip shit spouting off info without support. I completed my training up through my CA-1 year befor switching into FP. I then went back and completed another residency in EM. My wife is also an RN turned anesthesiologist whom I respect and love very much. I just felf the comment was a little off line with regard to responsibility levels but it wasn't meant to get everone upset to the point where they need to justify their chosen path in life. Personally, I didn't choose to be a physician solely for the money. I graduated in the top 10% of my class and top 5% of my USMLE exams so I probably could have managed a high paying specialty if desired. I was lucky enough to have an academic scholarship that paid for over half my tuition which made it easier to chose a specialty I enjoyed and not one solely to pay off 175K of debt like some of my colleagues. I know and worked with a alot of CRNA's that I respect highly, and I personally learned more from a CRNA during my CA-1 year than my attendings. I just have a problem with the more responsibility comment....that is it!!!!!!!!Have a great day!
RAM MD
I would like to correct tbe ivy league CRNA who posted on 1/04/2009 stating that nurses were the first to administer anesthestics. Your history is WRONG! You might want to recheck that. Actually it was Dr. Crawford W. Long who in 1842 a primary care physician who administered ether for the sole purpose of producing surgical anesthesia. Miller 4th ed 2000. I think that at the end of the day MD and CRNA work together as a team. At the end of the day one person is a doctor the other is a nurse. No matter how you dress it up DNP, CRNA or whatever other letters you want to throw into the mix one is still a nurse the other is a physician. Now what does that mean.........nothing! I respect CRNAs as I respect AAs. All work together to provide a vital service for patients. I have to agree with the CRNA who posted that the attempt to compare CRNA to an MD is retarded. One has done 4 yrs of undergraduate, 4 years of medical school(125k+), 4 years of residency and possibly fellowship after. Plus MCAT, 4 USMLE exams, 8 in-service exams, plus state and federal licensing exams. I am not going to speak to the Nursing exams because I do not know what they take. What does all this mean at the end of the day............my friends that whether CRNA or MD we all treat patients with the noble goal of reducing pain! Family medicine is a wonderful field which does not get enough credit. There are nearly 800 million physician visits in the US. 400 million of those are through family phyisicans/General practiioners. In other words they are the gateway for patients into the medical system. For any one either CRNA, AA or anesthesiologist to think for a moment that they are more important than primary care you are the one who needs a psych consult. God Bless all in the medical field! Nuff Said!
I wanted to say I am very annoyed at some of the comments posted here. I believe all in the medical field deserve there due credit for what each level of the medical team brings to the table. For a CRNA to say that you could have been a physician as though it easy is wrong to say and insulting!! Not only is the field of anesthesia competitive for a medical student to enter so is medical school. I know for a fact that to get into nursing school is a great deal easier to get into! Now does that mean that one should not respect CRNA or AAs for what services and skills they have........of course not! But it is wrong for someone who has not walked a mile in my shoes to then come on here and say that CRNAs know more and claim that medical school is easy and that all one must do is apply and you are in. If that was the case why did you not go? and better yet why are there not more people going to medical school if it so easy? It is like me saying I could be president of the US........but I chose NOT to do it cause I wanted to leave it for Barack. Do not claim that you could do something when clearly you have not. I could have been a nuclear physicist if I wanted but.........I decided not to so I could leave it for Einstein and I will settle at being a lab tech. Does this sound familiar? All people bring a certain skill set to there profession. Be happy and confident in what you bring, there is no need to get upset and then tear down those who chose a different route when the same opportunity was available to you. God Bless!
Yeah but a crna is still not a dr. hahah
In resonse to the above posting 1/18, I whole-heartedly agree that CRNA's have less education than MD's; however education is not equal to being "smart". As a CRNA myself, I take great offense to the idea that I am not "smart" enough to enter medical school. I have infact gained acceptance into one of the most prestigeous medical schools in the area, but chose not to persue that avenue because of my family situation ... So am I any less "smart" than some other medical student who was called off the waiting list when I declined my position in the class? NO!! It's funny that you mentioned Einstein ... he is widely known to have been one of the world's smartest persons. Did do well in school? Nope. By your definitions then, he isn't "smart". I work with anesthesiologists everyday, and all of them know that I'm just as capable as they are in terms of academic ability. I CHOSE to be a CRNA and not a MD, not based on academic ability but because life happens.. Yes, I took a different route but you ARE tearing down my profession in stating that I was not qualified to be a MD.
Isn't it interesting that no where in my post did I mention that one had to be "Smart" to go to medical school. It is so convenient that you can come to a forum and state that of course you turned down a prestigious acceptance offer to medical school. Nowhere did I mention that Einstein was not smart!! Please do not put words in my mouth! Again since you chose to be a CRNA why then are you here trying to tear down the MD profession? You sit hear and say that due to family situation you had to decline your medical school admission. As I mentioned in the post previously YOU had the opportunity to go to medical school that avenue was open to you. YOU chose not to per sue it! To come here and then state that because of that fact you therefore could have been an anesthesiologist is silly. Your logic does not follow here. A+B does not equal C here. You are again making assumptions. I am sure you have heard the saying actions speak louder than words. Talk is cheap! Do it and then comment on it! Until such time it is all talk and nothing more plain and simple. I never said that CRNAs are not intelligent! Nor did I say that MDs are geniuses. What I said previously which I will again state is that one should be happy and confident in what skills you bring to your service. For me to say I could have been President of the US because I was voted class valedictorian is a stupid and the reasoning is as flawed as your own. I by no means are tearing down the work that CRNAs do or provide. I feel that they work as hard as any MD or AA. There are many people who did not go to school and are "smart", ie. Bill Gates. But for me to say that since I am a university drop out therefore I am guaranteed to make billions like Bill Gates according to your logic........that does not follow. At the end of the day all people in the medical profession need to be respected! If you chose to be a CRNA then be happy in your choice whatever the reason for it. But to make assumptions about the future as to what could have been.....hmmmm does not work. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda.......but you didn't! God bless and goodnight!
You all are wasting your time. Why are you guys blogging about who's profession is better than the other? All of you are a disgrace to whatever branch of medicine you practice. You sure have angered me with your descrimitive comments and morally incorrect opinions. Get over yourselves...
The funny thing is it doesn't matter what physicians think of CRNAs. The issue is out of your control. Your opinions don't matter. Your not the ultimate decision maker on this. The market is, and what happens when two professionals provide the same service, but one of them is 50% cheaper? Bingo.
Oh yeah. And when you rebut this by saying that CRNAs provide a lower quality service, please provide a relevant study, not just your opinion.
I think almost everyone who shared their opinion in this blog is very ignorant except for the nurses. Nursing school is not easy to get into I know I am attending nursing school, I am also a future CRNA. I have respect for doctors but they are very full of them selves especially the men. Both share great Responsibility and there is alot of physician on this blog ranting and raving like children, especially august west. Yea Im talking to you GROW UP!!!!!!!!!!
You can write back to this blog and say what you want but my chances of returning is very slim.
Ok, I have read all the posts! I am in CRNA school as we speak. My anesthesia career thus far is limited, however, I just wanted to make a few points. I feel as though you cannot compare MD's to CRNA to FP or PCP to a title, I feel it is based on the person and experience. Does one think that a newly trained MDA can handle situations better than a CRNA with 25 years experience? More likey no, however I feel they each could learn from the other esp with fast advancing technology and so forth. Also, some professionals are lazy for example even if they are smart or think medicine was their calling..but you yourself wouldn't want them touching you! You can't just throw any MDA or CRNA into an open heart case if they have a very little knowledge or experience base in cardio anesthesia. Also CRNA's sometimes have a different view than MD's based on their background to bedside care in the ICU...but not saying MD's don't have that touch either..alot of them do..it all depends on the person! I've had some great Anesthesiologist take care of me. I'm pretty good at IV's and sticks and so forth because I spent my undergrad working as a phlebotomist for years, then a heart hospital, and my trauma,neuro ICU at a major level one hospital. However, my classmates have many other experiences I do not have or they have many more years in the hospital setting than me. Sharing knowledge is key! It's nice being an MD because you get that extra training in residency that allows for further knowledge in alot of different areas that you can bring to the table. Some people truely love their job and some might feel they only like the money..which could also affect attitudes, which in turn could affect ones practice. As far as money goes, I'm from West Tx orig., when demand outweighs supply, the money is always greater in any area of the coutry! I love money, but I'm not willing to be on call every other night! As far as comparing PCP to Anesthesia, I'm not going to go there..ha...however, I will say, I feel there are probably different aspects of each position that the other wouldn't want, hence we are where the good Lord lead us to be! Also, another quick note, there does seem to be a slight difference in attitudes of MDA vs CRNA's, which is sort of annoying, the stardards of care are the same, but speaking from a nurse standpoint, nurses are always having to prove themselves..it seems silly, but its reality. There are "RNs" out there & their only responsibility is to give flu shots in a clinic..anyways..you get the idea! In HS, I wanted to be an MDA, got into college and decided taking the MD route to Anesthesia was longer than I wanted..so I went the nursing route. I bring my own experience to the table, but MDAs still get paid for their dues ex: alot more money than CRNAs..they get to medical direct and charge for cases they just looked at ;-) But hey..all said and done it's all a collaborative effort for all medical professionals involved for great patient care!
Go ahead and remove that "A"...
Since they're both doing the "same thing" according to the CRNA spokesperson of the year...
MD > RN (no brainer..)
I'll believe otherwise when I see a "House, C.R.N.A." on TV
The CRNA needs to look at it through the rest of the society's view, and not with a jealous eye because we all know there is and always will always be a hierarchy.
If a doctor and a nurse are attending to a patient, and the patient is in distress...who would the patient ask for help in that moment?
They will ask for the doctor.
Even if they were unconscious, who's hands do you think they would feel more comfortable in?
If someting goes wrong in a plane, who do the flight attendants ask for?
"Is there a nurse on-board?"...
Sorry, never heard it, never will.
I'm scared of your judgement as a care taker if you legitimately still think that what you have said was accurate.
MDA 1 CRNA .5 (Im being nice)
So I'm on call at the hospital...bored and had sometime to read this blog!!! People, pople...please!!! We sound like children!! I'm a CRNA practicing for 5 years, I have 3 different jobs right now, I work with some excellent anesthesiologist, excellent CRNAs and some others that I would not let touch me or my family member (both MD and CRNA).
The reality is patients percieve doctors as being "better" than nurses. However when one of the GYN docs wife was delivering her baby last week they secretly callme to do her epidural and to make sure that it was me...the CRNA that does 10 epidurals daily and not the anesthesiologist that does 1 epidural a month.
I also know of an anesthsiologist that coul not manage an airway after pushing too much propofol for an upper endoscopy...they call the CRNA who was next door to resucitate the pt.
Equally, I know of a CRNA who attempted an epidural 8 times and refused to call for back up, it wasn't until the labor nurse took it upon her self to call the "supervising anesthesiologist" that he stop sticking the poor patient!!
My point is..it doesn't matter whether it is an anesthesiologist or a CRNA...some people skills are better than others, know your limitations and do not hesitate calling for help...whether CRNA or MD. Its not about you, its about the pt. This person is someone's son, mother, daughther who doesn't really care about your title!!!
Hope it makes us realize how stupid we sound when we talk about titles!!
I know I probably have no right to comment on anything since I'm only a freshman in college. But even I, someone who isn't in the medical profession all of you have worked extremely hard for, is embarrassed somewhat. I have read through all the comments. I believe its rather ridiculous that there's even an argument on professional matters. And that is only speaking to those who were going off about ''oh i make more money than you, oh and I got a bigger stick than you too.." Who cares? I'm someone who believes that you choose to go to university, medical school, training programs and residencies for certain reasons. And yes, money is one of those reasons because its all worth it in the end as it does provide a comfortable, nice life. But I'm also a man who believes that you should do the job because you have a passion for it. I have the most deep and utmost respect for anyone in the medical field, whether the person is a nurse or a doctor, I do not care. You all have your duties to save lives.
Also, I originally came in here hoping to find some answers on the path to a career aspect. As I said, I'm only in college, undecided for my major. I got my CNA when I was 17, I'm nearly 19 now. Before I got my CNA, I knew my heart was in the medical field already and at the time I aspired to become a plastic surgeon. After the clinical portion of the cna/rma program, my mind had completely changed and I knew I wanted to be a nurse. Since I've been a full time student though, I've come up with the goals and plan to become a CRNA. I know its easier said than done, but I'm totally set because its where my heart is and I want it more than anything. I will be declaring my major for nursing next semester. So, here are my questions. What's to be expected if I am to pursue the college career, entrance into the training programs and such? What's the best way to approach doing what I need to do? If you any of you CRNA's can answer me this, I greatly appreciate it.
Since I came to this country for Post-Doctoral training, it amazed me seen certain nurses playing to be a doctor; I think that is very irresponsible. Nurse is a nurse even if you do a DNP (“Doctor of Nursing Practice”), you are not a Medical Doctor and you shouldn’t try to pretend that you are.
A nurse without medical supervision is like having mediocre doctors without the rigorous training and skills needed to be a good doctor.
It’s not a matter of been "smarter" or not, is a matter of training.
You can be the smartest person in the world, but for much effort that you put in your mind trying to do a difficult diagnosis, you just can’t reason like a medical doctor, and so.
Doctors can do everything that nurses can do, if they replaced every nurse with another doctor it would all run fine/better. But it doesn’t work in the opposite way.
If somebody thinks that MDs can be replace for NPs, is just a lack of respect for medical doctors who had pass through the most rigorous and demanding training to be replaced for people who are not in the same level; it is also unbelievable that Americans will be eager to accept a substandard care just to save some money.
Since I came to this country for Post-Doctoral training, it amazed me seen certain nurses playing to be a doctor; I think that is very irresponsible. Nurse is a nurse even if you do a DNP (“Doctor of Nursing Practice”), you are not a Medical Doctor and you shouldn’t try to pretend that you are.
A nurse without medical supervision is like having mediocre doctors without the rigorous training and skills needed to be a good doctor.
It’s not a matter of been "smarter" or not, is a matter of training.
You can be the smartest person in the world, but for much effort that you put in your mind trying to do a difficult diagnosis, you just can’t reason like a medical doctor, and so.
Doctors can do everything that nurses can do, if they replaced every nurse with another doctor it would all run fine/better. But it doesn’t work in the opposite way.
If somebody thinks that MDs can be replace for NPs, is just a lack of respect for medical doctors who had pass through the most rigorous and demanding training to be replaced for people who are not in the same level; it is also unbelievable that Americans will be eager to accept a substandard care just to save some money.
Hey folks. I won't be a sissy, I'll sign my name to the end of this....
You guys are really, REALLY, funny. First off, I am not a Doctor, Nurse or in any way associated with the medical field. I am an attorney (do I lose any credibility yet?).
From a layman's perspective, there is really no comparison between a physician and a cnra. I almost certainly give more respect to the Doctor. Don't ask me why, perhaps because of history, habit or some other reason.
I have known quite a few nurses and most know their place. They quietly acknowledge that they do not garner the respect of the physicians while also knowing that they perform most of the work. Kind of like being a paralegal in a lawfirm. They do most of the work but the Lawyer gets the credit.
The problem with this whole argument is that nurses have entirely too low of self esteems (they want to be appreciated for what they are) while doctors have too high a self esteem (they want to be appreciated for what they are not).
Doctors think because they are doctors, that they are the greatest. Granted, they do have a great responsibility, but so do lots of professions.... pilots, teachers, bus drivers, etc.
Now, although I hold doctors in a higher regard than nurses, there are some doctors that I just don't find all that impressive... although I respect them as people, I have no professional respect for general practitioners, family doctors, ENT's or pediatrists (is that the foot doctor?).
Likewise, I hate the fact that everyone calls themself "Doctor". Doctor of Chiropractic Medicine... Doctor of Psychology... etc... get off your high horse. Who really cares.
Lastly, all you nurses should relax. As patients, we realize that you have a harder job than the doctor. You just don't get the credit. Doctor's are, for the most part, extremely egotistical and without reason. The fact that they were lucky enough to have a parent who pushed them into the medical field means that they are God's gift to the suffering is silly.
Well, I'm sure I'll think of more... but that's my two cents for now.
By the way... you are all overpaid.
-Mark
Columbus, Ohio
Mark, I wouldn't expect anything less from an attorney! You made very little sense with your comments! You hold doctors with high regard but not FP's ENT's GP's... Why? are they any less of a physician than the IM, GI, Orthopaedist? Nurses do more of the work than the physicians they work along side? I have yet to have a nurse place a chest tube for me, place a central line for me, remove a foreign body for me, examine the patient or write the presciption for me, so shut your f......g mouth and go back to ripping people off as a so called attorney! Their work with the exception of CRNA's, NP's and a few select others differs dramatically to that of a physician, I sometimes work up to 80 hours a week....I don't know many nurses with my work and call schedule, but I guess talking to the patient, examining the patient, making an accurate diagnosis, discussing the medications prescribed, writing the office note, completing the other required misc. crap isn't real work.....Especially when you do it 40-60 times a day with interspersed chest pains, bullet wounds, trauma, lacerations and all the other more serious patient encounters you have to deal with! The legal profession is obviously much different than the medical profession if your paralegal does most of your work and you take credit for it. Then again, your work is done predominantly behind the scenes where ours is in your face! I have never taken credit for the work the nurses do because they patient's aren't stupid and can see it for themselves. Granted my life would be miserable if I didn't have great nurses working around me and yes they do know what they are doing and are very good at it. Personally, I think the vast majority of you attorneys aren't worth the air you breath. Very little in the way of professional ethics...We don't get paid for talking to patients over the phone concerning their care like an attorney does, We don't follow a patient along and completely withdrawl care because they can't come up with the 15K to pay off a bill before we progress further with their care. I know several attorneys and I think they make a living as bullshit artists! Twisting words, retainer fees, charging 200-300/hr for time thinking about a case or talking on the phone. Take a good look at your own pathetic profession before you comment on someone else's! I watched first hand as you bottom feeding attorneys tried to take my uncle to the cleaners during his divorce.....Almost 300/hr, retainer fees, fees for almost everything, and then have the audacity to tell him what to give up to his cheating wife so that a judge doesn't think he is trying to leave the ex with nothing. Extending the case out over 1 year, charging a total of almost 300K in fees when his wasn't the one at fault.....Yea, I infact have little respect for your piece of crap profession and the thing you guys do to make a living. You think physicians get paid too much because you aren't one! Sound's like a case of penis envy to me because you feel your chosen occupation is worth that of the physician's. Didn't hear you comment on the CRNA making 175K, the NP making 80-90K or the RN making 50-60K, they probably make more money than you also. Why is an attorney on a medical blog site that exists to discuss such issues as income in the first place??? I suspect that you are here to get some attention. What is the matter, no friends? Mother didn't spend any quality time with you when you were growing up? Most of the nurses that I know don't have low self esteem and most of the physicians aren't egotistical. Granted, there will always be some MD's that think they are God's gift to humanity and nurses that can't stand what they do but that typically happens in any profession. Take a look at your profession, I bet you wish you were a famous attorney raking in millions practicing law they way it was intended, instead you are probably some unethical dip shit that went to a 4th tier law school, and chases ambulances around because you couldn't find a job with a decent law firm. I truly feel for you in that you feel the need to come onto a medical web site and comment on things you know little about. You wouldn't catch me on a law website posting a bunch of B.S. Maybe I'm being a little harsh, after all he says that he isn't a sissy and can probably take it, but next time you are out and about and get seriously injured and roll through the ED, ask the name of your FP/ED physician for whom you have so little professional respect for and you may be surprised to see me!!!!! Good Luck!
Just my 2 cents, and if this moron reposts....I will too!
Richard M, MD ABFP, ABEM AKA RAM, MD
Columbus, Ohio
Richard: You found me out: No good, underachieving lawyer just out to screw the little people. Geeesshhh. This is the exact reason why people think Doctors are pompus jerks!
It is not my fault that your uncle got bad representation. Just as it is not your fault that my wife was the victim of medical malpractice.
As for me holding certain doctors in a higher regard than others, that's just the way I feel. Do you hold public defenders in the same light as you do complex business lawyers? Of course not. And to attack me for that belief is just idiotic. You should really put things into perspective before you speak.
It appears that you are the one with penis envy... upset that lawyers charge for phone calls, letters, etc. Unfortunately, lawyers don't have the benefit of insurance coverage to pay their bills. I wish we did. Let me ask you this: How often do these HMO's accept a new patient who doesn't have insurance? What is worse: failing to heal someone because they can't afford it? Or: failing to allow someone to sue someone because they can't afford it?
Again, I wish we had insurance that would pay for my services. That way I could make more money than an RN, NP and CNRA. That would be great.
As for not having any respect for this 4th tier law school graduate, I know your type... big talker. But when it comes down to it, you are the one pissing your pants when the shit hits the fan. I have spent the better part of the last 10 years defending medical malpractice matters for MCHS East and West. So I know you need me. I know you respect me and know that I do what needs to be done to protect you and your profession when you screw up. I've seen doctors cry because they are sued when they mess up. So, judge me all you want, but I am the reason you can be as egotistical as you are.... with me out there, you will never be proven negligent.
Perhaps I created a monster.
Richard, you are an idiot. And those initials behind your name do not impress those in the know.
Good luck "doctor".
-Mark
You tellem mark!!! i respect lawyers they are such reputable and notable individuals..........on the other hand doctors and nurses are worthless..mark your profession is the reason we have a near sane society! your awesome and keep up the good criticisms, these docs and nurses need to hear the TRUTH and nothing but the truth
- Doug
ER medical physician
I think some of these MDs need to go back to school and learn how to spell. They also need to learn how to capitalize proper nouns and punctuate correctly. Obviously, English wasn't their best subject. Oh, and if any of you need a good medical malpractice attorney to defend you when you screw up, give me a call. In the meantime, I'll be driving around in my Bentley that your stupid mistakes paid for. Thanks! Try not to kill anyone today, okay. On second thought, go ahead. I could always use another vacation home.
This is so crazy, can't help but laugh.It quite funny and and same time disgraceful that professional would express themselves this way. I truely believe that whatever one chose to do, then do it well.Just to paraphase one of MLK quote" if one decides to become a housekeeper, clean the house so well,so people around would appreciate your hand work" So as an MD, CRNA, RN,PT Pharm, all have to work together as a team and at the same puting the patients frist.
And Mark and Doug, really hit the nail at the right place. Choi.
Hi,
This post is truly getting out of hand. The important thing here is defining scope of practice. As an anesthesiologist, and an MD one has to realize that its not the degree but rather the selective process by which it is administered. Thus, the scientific training during medical school allows us to research and improve an imperfect are (medicine) a process learned in medical school. The depth of understanding of the pathophysiology of ALL disease and its implication in the patient that you are currently treating is what separates us from those with nursing degrees. Remember that without the rapid expansion of knowledge provided by clinician scientist is what has allowed CRNAs to be able to practice under supervision in this country. The erosion of physician authority is propogated by these web based arguments.
I think all of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Both RNs and MDs. Both of you are painting a very ugly picture of your professions. Reminds me of that tune
"Everything you can do I can do better, everything you can do I can do too. No you cant. Yes I can. No you cant. Yes I can!"
Its so ridiculous. So childish. I am very surprised such educated professionals are acting so childish. Here I am deciding whthr to become a MD or a CRNA so I decided to read this blog. Now Im as confused as ever. This blogs not very helpful, if anything it makes people want to run for the hills. THanks MDs and CRNAs for showing your ugly heads. So I guess it is true, MDs and CRNAs are pompous and stubborn creatures. Evidence right here on the blog. So very sad
And by the way, nursing and Medicine are different from one another. Thats why its categorized differently. So stop comparing each other.
WOW this an interesting blog and really touched the heart strings of some folks.
There is no doubt that the training is far longer, far far more difficult and possibly most importantly more exclusive in medicine. So we whine and moan about the things we have created to help us which are now stealing more and more of the so called pie (crnas, CRNP, PAs) . Did you know that they are making "phds's" of NP now so they can call themselves doctors?? Interesting to say the least.
But value in pt care is all that matters and it seems apparent that it does not take all that training to sit at a stool writing down vital signs on most cases.
It is totally insane that my sister who is a PA working for a cardiologist makes far more than her pediatrician. What does she do..she is an intern essentially or medical student writing notes in the hospital, doing h and ps, doing discharge summaries, and writing scripts so the doctor does not have to bothered with that aspect. She like many who chose those fields tried repeatedly to got to medical school and could not get in. The Dentists optometrists, vets, pas, crnas, and CRNPs all say they chose to do this and they could have gone to med school. For some it may be true, others could not hack it, and many others we will never know. The point is that there is a battle for the doctor pie and everyone wants to get their piece. You can say it is bout pt care and twist it a million ways but it is a turf war and a political one and one that physicians suck at because we are too busy taking care of pts.
By the way I am a surgeon and I trained longer, Work longer and need to know and do more than any of the obove mentioned specialties save possibly the primary doc depending on how good they are. And I bet that I make less than many of you. It can be sad to watch the man behind the curtain leave for lunch after a hard day of watching the stock market, knowing he makes way way too much money...both crnas and MDs.
But if you want to be the best and really understand what you are doing and have a chance to help move medicine forward. Go for the M.D. It is as hard is it ever was and in many ways worse but it is still the most competitive, most difficult thing that any significant portion of the population gets involved in.
I am a new nurse who feels blessed by the Lord to have become an RN. However, I must say that I am getting turned off toward nursing because of what I have seen in the 4 years of school. In my view all nurses, regardless of their education level, have a complex about doctors. I witnessed this both in class and in my clinicals. Even the text books are so demeaning toward doctors and make an effort to elevate nurses. I saw so much insecurity in most of the professors in the way they talk about doctors. I do not find it surprising that the CRNP in this blog thinks he/she knows more than a doctor.
Something I noticed is that nurses (the vast majority of whom are women) hate doctors because traditionally doctors have been men. Someone commented that, "MDA's dont practice in rural America because it is an inconvenience to them and their wives" (WIVES... assuming the MDAs are all males). As a male nurse, people (especially older patients), mistake me for a doctor.
What is my point? Women nurses cannot stand being under male doctors. I had a profesor who used to say, "Thank goodness we do not have to stand for the doctor when HE comes in the room like in the old days". She said it with such resentment and vehemence, emphasizing "HE", that I used to think "woe to me and the other 8 or 9 male students in a class of 200 females". Another guest speaker in class said, "We are nurses and we do something much better than a doctor". Say what? But I kept my mouth shut lest the wrath of female anger that filled that room was unleashed upon me.
In the past few years, major universities are accepting more female students than male in their medicine department. I wonder if nurses' attitudes toward doctors will improve with more of their own gender in medical school or if this pure angst is so engrained in nurses that this attitude will continue nonetheless. My sister worked as a nurse 8 months and got so fed up with her co-workers attitudes... So now she is a medical student in her 1st year of clinicals. I have now worked 2 months as a nurse and am already taking action by upgrading my prerequesites hoping and praying to become a medical student, because now I can see what my sister was talking about and I don't want to deal with (or be associated with) a bunch of insecure nurses either.
If you are a doctor, please rest assured that any criticism from a nurse is usually out of jealousy because most of us know it takes stamina and hard work to become a doctor. Therefore, the only way we nurses can feel good about not having the knowledge base or experience of a doctor is to say "I have much more resposibility than an MD" and make fun of them. All of you fellow nurses know in your hearts that what I am talking about is the truth regardless of your level of education.